Greetings from across the pond. Hope you all are doing well and will soon have the ability to get out of WA and fish (ie. Steve's Bayou Redfish Extravaganza)
I am needing some help with my connections... i follow Morse's Arbor to Fly.
At the point of connecting the backing to a braided mono loop i get to the last step of anchoring the tag end and finishing the end of the braided loop to tidy it up and i am drawing a complete blank..... How to i finish this (pic attached for reference). There are zero online videos to show how and Morse has yet to ship any DVD's over here to America. Plus i dont own a DVD player.
i have requested that Morse update his YouTube channel with this also...
many thanks for the help!! and see you all again at Boneheads... one day....
Braided Mono loop to backing
Braided Mono loop to backing
- Attachments
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Re: Braided Mono loop to backing
I tie a seven turn nail knot using some thin braid about 30mm up from the end of the braided mono.
I tighten the nail knot just enough so i can slide it down to wear the braided mono just starts to unravel then cinch the nail knot down hard.
Trim the tag ends right at the knot and also the braided mono
I finish mine off buy using some UV knot sense glue to smooth it out
I tighten the nail knot just enough so i can slide it down to wear the braided mono just starts to unravel then cinch the nail knot down hard.
Trim the tag ends right at the knot and also the braided mono
I finish mine off buy using some UV knot sense glue to smooth it out
Re: Braided Mono loop to backing
Since the backing is doubled over and there is a backing tag end, what’s done with the tag end to secure it. I recall Morse doing something with it in his Arbor to Fly video but can recall what that was…
Re: Braided Mono loop to backing
I thought that backing tag end was from a bimini twist/spider hitch not just the end of a loop of backing. Sorry no idea.
But there's way more knowledgeable people on this forum than me that may be familiar with this method or provide an answer.
But there's way more knowledgeable people on this forum than me that may be familiar with this method or provide an answer.
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Simon Gilbert
- Club Member
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:25 am
Re: Braided Mono loop to backing
I'm not sure what you mean by tag end of the backing if it's not the tag end of the knot (like Brett says). Surely you are knotting the backing to make the loop in the backing and then attaching it to the loop you've created to allow for the easy changing of fly lines. If not, I would never rely in just a doubled backing (with no knot) and then put it up the centre of the braided loop you've created (even being looped around the braided loop).
I use a 40-50 turn bimini twist in the backing (leaving say a 100-200mm long loop at the end of the backing) but other knots will do. I like a bimini as it's really slim. I create a small loop so the actual bimini will sit inside the braided loop - so it's well protected with no tag end of the knot showing (with several minor problems that this gives).
Like Brett, I use a couple of nail knots but I put them either side of the imbedded backing knot for even more strength. I whip finish the end of the manufactured loop where the backing enters the loop so it goes over all the 'ratty' ends with fine fly tying thread and then UV knot sense. Makes for very even transition.
Be aware that the nylon braid that most people use is only labeled at 50lb. Many years ago I tested some of this and from memory it was only about 45lb (when wet). It's also only made with relatively few strands and is nylon. So if you have old material (it's badly affected by sun and most indoor lighting) or it gets scuffed on the deck of the boat (or on the bottom), it may test significantly less. I have seen people rigging up their gear with 40/50lb (or in the Seychelles 100 lb) tippets but still join their fly lines (which can test well over 40/50lb) with this braided nylon. So the weakest part of your line becomes the connection between the fly line and backing. A good recipe for losing a $200+ fly line. There are a lot of alternatives that test at 80-150lb and are smaller diameter than the usual braided nylon.
There are a few recipes here to what you can do....
www.saltwaterflyfishing.com.au/board/th ... ing.19694/
I do another slightly different way to create the braided loop preferring a proper spliced loop and not just run the braid inside one of the legs. It's a bit difficult to describe here.
Perhaps I've also got the wrong idea of what you are saying. You may have to explain better
I use a 40-50 turn bimini twist in the backing (leaving say a 100-200mm long loop at the end of the backing) but other knots will do. I like a bimini as it's really slim. I create a small loop so the actual bimini will sit inside the braided loop - so it's well protected with no tag end of the knot showing (with several minor problems that this gives).
Like Brett, I use a couple of nail knots but I put them either side of the imbedded backing knot for even more strength. I whip finish the end of the manufactured loop where the backing enters the loop so it goes over all the 'ratty' ends with fine fly tying thread and then UV knot sense. Makes for very even transition.
Be aware that the nylon braid that most people use is only labeled at 50lb. Many years ago I tested some of this and from memory it was only about 45lb (when wet). It's also only made with relatively few strands and is nylon. So if you have old material (it's badly affected by sun and most indoor lighting) or it gets scuffed on the deck of the boat (or on the bottom), it may test significantly less. I have seen people rigging up their gear with 40/50lb (or in the Seychelles 100 lb) tippets but still join their fly lines (which can test well over 40/50lb) with this braided nylon. So the weakest part of your line becomes the connection between the fly line and backing. A good recipe for losing a $200+ fly line. There are a lot of alternatives that test at 80-150lb and are smaller diameter than the usual braided nylon.
There are a few recipes here to what you can do....
www.saltwaterflyfishing.com.au/board/th ... ing.19694/
I do another slightly different way to create the braided loop preferring a proper spliced loop and not just run the braid inside one of the legs. It's a bit difficult to describe here.
Perhaps I've also got the wrong idea of what you are saying. You may have to explain better
Re: Braided Mono loop to backing
Hey Simon and Brett, I appreciate the info this far and definitely feel there is definitely a few ways to skin this cat.
I have only followed the Morse Arbor to Fly method which I recall was a very clean and quite simple finish (but apparently not that simple I guess….)
So what I am doing is making my braided loop… prepped ready to go and doubled up all the way to the cut end.
I then double up some backing… in this case it’s Dacron. I thread my wire from the loop down to the cut end and pull the backing up and out the braided mono and it exits just under the loop opening.
This creates a loop of backing up by the braided loop. I then pass the braided mono loop through the backing loop, twist backing once, pass the braided loop back through, twist again… I do this 6-8 times. I then pull the backing from the cut end to cinch up backing up at the braided loop.
This now leaves me with a very minimal backing anchor up at the loop and the backing and backing tag end exiting the cut end of the braided loop… and here is where I’m blank. In the Arbor to Fly video, Morse puts an anchor at the cut end that is Also minimal and clean and it’s evading me. I’ve tried a Rizutto finish which just pulls down and off the braid.
I do know nails are a fantastic anchors and I would use this then adding a loop to a fly line 100%.
It’s this damn tag end!!!
Thank you for reading my novel.
Someone out there has to have a copy of Arbor to fly to see what magic he does right…?
I have only followed the Morse Arbor to Fly method which I recall was a very clean and quite simple finish (but apparently not that simple I guess….)
So what I am doing is making my braided loop… prepped ready to go and doubled up all the way to the cut end.
I then double up some backing… in this case it’s Dacron. I thread my wire from the loop down to the cut end and pull the backing up and out the braided mono and it exits just under the loop opening.
This creates a loop of backing up by the braided loop. I then pass the braided mono loop through the backing loop, twist backing once, pass the braided loop back through, twist again… I do this 6-8 times. I then pull the backing from the cut end to cinch up backing up at the braided loop.
This now leaves me with a very minimal backing anchor up at the loop and the backing and backing tag end exiting the cut end of the braided loop… and here is where I’m blank. In the Arbor to Fly video, Morse puts an anchor at the cut end that is Also minimal and clean and it’s evading me. I’ve tried a Rizutto finish which just pulls down and off the braid.
I do know nails are a fantastic anchors and I would use this then adding a loop to a fly line 100%.
It’s this damn tag end!!!
Thank you for reading my novel.
Someone out there has to have a copy of Arbor to fly to see what magic he does right…?
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Simon Gilbert
- Club Member
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:25 am
Re: Braided Mono loop to backing
I think you misunderstand. I (and many other people), first tie a loop in the backing with a knot (bimini, spider hitch or several other knots). Seems to me that you are not doing this but are relying purely on the 6 or 8 times you interlock the doubled dacron backing at the braided loop opening to provide strength between the loop and the backing. Yes this is probably enough - but I like to be doubly sure. To me this should be a knotted loop - not merely a doubled section of backing. If you are using dacron which is almost certainly a hollow line, do a proper splice loop - then you don't have any tag end to worry about. There are plenty of videos showing how to tie a 'blind spliced dacron loop' (eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKXVvvr6H00&t=285s)
If you use a knot, then you only have a small tag end which is not a problem anyway. As I said, I prefer to imbed the knot and associated small tag end inside the braided loop splice - but that's not compulsory. Those videos I gave you show a couple of ways to do this.
I actually wonder why you are using a braided nylon loop here anyway if you are using dacron as backing. The reason why most people use a braided nylon loop is to increase the diameter of the very fine PE (Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene line with brand names such as Spectra, Dyneema. Also called Gelspun) backing line so that when you loop a fly line onto your backing the backing doesn't cut into the fly line. Also if you only use a loop made from PE line, it makes it very hard to undo the loop when changing a fly line as the loop knot is extremely small. I used 'Micron' (a thin diameter dacron) in 20 and 30lb for many, many years and never had an issue with the size of the loop knot or cutting into the fly line. So I think you are going to unnecessary complexity trying to use a braided nylon loop as well.
But if you want extra capacity and retrieve rate (spool doesn't decrease as much with line out) and decide to use PE line, then you'll need something to increase the diameter of the line that creates the loop in the backing.
But perhaps I haven't understood what you mean....
If you use a knot, then you only have a small tag end which is not a problem anyway. As I said, I prefer to imbed the knot and associated small tag end inside the braided loop splice - but that's not compulsory. Those videos I gave you show a couple of ways to do this.
I actually wonder why you are using a braided nylon loop here anyway if you are using dacron as backing. The reason why most people use a braided nylon loop is to increase the diameter of the very fine PE (Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene line with brand names such as Spectra, Dyneema. Also called Gelspun) backing line so that when you loop a fly line onto your backing the backing doesn't cut into the fly line. Also if you only use a loop made from PE line, it makes it very hard to undo the loop when changing a fly line as the loop knot is extremely small. I used 'Micron' (a thin diameter dacron) in 20 and 30lb for many, many years and never had an issue with the size of the loop knot or cutting into the fly line. So I think you are going to unnecessary complexity trying to use a braided nylon loop as well.
But if you want extra capacity and retrieve rate (spool doesn't decrease as much with line out) and decide to use PE line, then you'll need something to increase the diameter of the line that creates the loop in the backing.
But perhaps I haven't understood what you mean....